Curse

Terek Zelta · Mar 01, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Agree. Most of the skills used to be a "blehnever" and now are a "blehmaybe" . In some W or X/W bars that already used a tactic skill or 2 its a good change but going to 15 tactics imo is not a viable option atm.

Offtopic : Can we stop this "omg gotta have SY! on my bar" race and talk about tactic skills like "Fear Me" and that stuff ?

I'm running 15 tactics now as my main build in HM. It's fun. It doesn't look good on paper, but it's pretty effective in practice, and very self-sufficient, making it good in pugs.

I use Penetrating Blow/Chop, like the old Soldier's Stance builds, for the extra AP. Those skills suck when you have strength, but are really good with full tactics and Fear Me.

As for SY, well... until they fix Watch Yourself, I'll continue to be lame with SY. Once they fix Watch Yourself, we'll talk.

Edit: Oh right. I know this seems to contradict my earlier post. But the point I was trying to make was strength is still stronger for most things, and I'd like to see more buffs to tactics skills that desperately need it.

qvtkc · Mar 01, 2010, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

ever notice how find their weakness is odd in that when you trigger it, the deep wound gets applied, reducing health, then the damage from your attack, causing a sort of self contained spike, normally if you hit with like dismember you have to hit em again to ush the bar all the way down.

Find Their Weakness is basically Eviscerate so there's nothing odd about it

FoxBat · Mar 01, 2010, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

I'm trying to come up with something fun for JQ or FA, some IWAY/shouty soldier wackiness. I could really use shield stance to hep cap the shrines, the damage reduction of defy pain lets you walk in there and beat stuff up, but then you sacrifice offense for it, but I bet some sort of IWAY/Hundred Blades thing, protected with that stance could just waltz in there...

Defy Pain
Dolyak Signet
Healing Signet
Enraging Charge
Bonetti's Defense
Shield Stance
Mending Touch
Purge Signet

12+4 str, 12+3 tac, 3 prot

Go aggro both turtles in FA and keep em busy, plus whatever players that are idiot enough to attack you. Neutralizing the turtles is generally going to win kurzicks games as long as you have a monk in the green gate. Best part is defy + shield stance stack, so you can even tank an RoJ with little effort.

Chthon · Mar 01, 2010, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Offtopic : Can we stop this "omg gotta have SY! on my bar" race and talk about tactic skills like "Fear Me" and that stuff ?

Sure, as soon as it stops being one of the most powerful skills available, I'll stop insisting that it belongs on its primary's bars.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 01, 2010, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. In my mind, losing FtW is the bigger loss.

2. The point is that you've lost *something*. Whenever a potential change results in a loss, you've got to find an offsetting gain that's as big or bigger, or the change isn't worth making.

Here's the negatives: You lose FtW. You lose some DPS and crit chance from less spear mastery. You take a little longer on average to gain your adrenaline.

Now, what are the positives? Whatever you can do with 1 free skillslot and the spear/leadership/tactics attribute split shown above. So, consider this a challenge if you will: Find some way to twist those positives into something more valuable than the FtW and 2 spear mastery you had to give up.

I haven't thought about it enough to say it's impossible, but I'm rather doubting it.

[Edit: You might try:
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Burning Refrain -- Maybe you can get enough burning to make up for the lost damage.
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Hexbreaker Aria -- This will cause a break in SY's uptime. Only useful if you really, really need hex removal.
Vicious Attack, Fear Me, Rez -- If your party is so short skillslots that the rez has to go on you, I suppose this definitely beats giving up 1 skill from the traditional build.]

I think your forgetting that this is PvE we're talking about. Efficiency is relative in the sense that if you're supporting enough for your team to roll on through PvE, it doesn't matter much -how- efficient you're doing it, just that you're doing it. Using AP instead of an Imbagon build might just have a different feel to it, and any Imbagon user knows how infinity boring the build can get.

Also, Fear Me is melee weapon only, which means no spears.

That's all besides the point that we're talking about warriors here. A Spear Warrior build using AP might just be more effective at pumping out SY! than regular builds, and at the very least it's something different. Dragon Slash might still pump out more damage, but you're not running around as much when you are ranged.

Terek Zelta · Mar 01, 2010, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I was just testing Auspicious Parry, Flail and SY as a possible alternative to the imbagon. It works. It does work. I was able to keep my entire party covered in SY with almost no downtime between casts, but it was close. My SY only lasts 5 seconds, but with a full 6 second SY, you could do it.

There are a few problems with the setup, and I wouldn't say it's better than using an imbagon.

With an imbagon, you can just pop FGJ or Focused Anger and then attack normally. With this setup, I was a little too preoccupied with activating AP and Flail to be able to attack much, if at all.

If we made a build with this, we'd need to bear in mind that the majority of our time will be spent switching stances instead of viciously attacking enemies or throwing swift javelins (see what I did there?)

You could probably get in an attack or two between the SY chains, but I'm not sure how practical it'd be.

I tend to steer clear of FGJ because warriors don't get Focused Anger, but since imbagons are already true to their name, I'm not sure why you'd want to use this.

Edit: I tacked on Barbed Spear and Spear of Fury. I used Spear of Fury when it was ready. It worked okay. I wouldn't try to compete with an imbagon, though, just on the basis that they can do this same thing, only a lot easier with a wider margin for error.

Chthon · Mar 02, 2010, 03:27 AM // 03:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Also, Fear Me is melee weapon only, which means no spears.

Aw crud, you're right. Flush that idea.

Agar · Mar 02, 2010, 09:51 AM // 09:51

The new tactic buff opened new and interesting ways. I saw somewhere a build for solo farming smites in UW using the new Gladiators defence than the usual HB. If i find it again i will post it here.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 02, 2010, 06:24 PM // 18:24

For regular play, Tactics still sucks. For a few niche purposes, a few of the buffs were interesting.

Reverend Dr · Mar 02, 2010, 07:43 PM // 19:43

So tactics will only see use in gimmicks. Good set of buffs.

dusanyu · Mar 04, 2010, 08:56 AM // 08:56

three step argument about tactics

1. A Warriors Job is to do big damage.
2. Tactics is a line of Defensive skills with lackluster offensive capabilities.
3. Specking into tactics removes points from strong offensive lines reducing your damage output

QED: Tactics is Still bad for Warrior primaries

Winterclaw · Mar 04, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I've been experimenting a little with ToV. It gives okay damage and some ade. It doesn't give as much ade as Enraging charge, but you can use it more often (so you'd get 10 ade in 40 seconds with ToV compared to 6 with EC). Fear Me should help your DPS a little against a mob that isn't moving around.

rodzilla711 · Mar 04, 2010, 11:48 PM // 23:48

The following is from the Offical Guild Wars Webs site:

"Tactics is the least exciting Warrior attribute and primarily sees use as a secondary attribute on other classes."

Personally, I think Tactics are still very weak, I don't really see anything to get warm and fuzzy about. One skill I think they surely killed is "Deflect Arrows". I used it on my healing Rit in RA to cover the spirit I used and on one of the monk builds I used in RA. It worked good for my Rit in RA. The monk use was very situational and not that great.

I'm not sure what group they are changing the skills to please but it's certainly not warriors. Personally I feel that warriors are by far the weakest class in RA, Fort Aspenwood from Luxon side and JQ on both sides. PvE maps are much easier to clear with casters. Sometimes I do PvE maps with no melee at all, most of the time it's very fast and a lot easier than working a melee type into the build, atlease it is easier for me, I've had a PvE Warrior for over 4 years and they're not the best toon to run with that is for sure. If you guys/girls come up with a good warrior build using tactics please let me know I would like to give it a whirl and compare it to the caster builds I use, as I've pretty much given up on my warrior after a little more than 4 years.

IrishX · Mar 04, 2010, 11:56 PM // 23:56

We used tactics in PuG GvG on two warriors for Charge. We had 6 warriors, so it was pretty insane, but for normal play, Tactics is still pretty weak.

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 05, 2010, 01:44 AM // 01:44

The problems with Tactics is that...

1) Earth Prayers > Tactics for defense
2) Strength is just better, skill and effect
3)Tactics doesn't offer much that strength or prots from monks can't do.

I was disappointed to see so many of the tactics blocking stances buffed with crappy added end effects and whatnot... I'd much rather a lot of the tactics skills like that change in functionality instead of buffed. No one is looking at Soldier's Defense, Defensive stance, and Soldier's Speed going "HEY I could spec into tactics and use that now!.

Fear Me! is gimmicky, and pokes even more fun at dervishes for scythe wielding warriors... in fact the only good change was None Shall Pass, Soldier's Stance, To The Limit, and Auspicious, which is kind of ridiculous for powering SY! (who knows why Anet keeps catering to such an OP skill though.). These still aren't reason enough to go Tactics.

Winterclaw · Mar 05, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

I briefly tried the following build with and without tactics skills:
Dragon Slash
Dwarven Headbutt
Steelfang Slash
Fear Me (+20% crit chance)
Flail

Using fear me bumped my DPS against the damage master up by six (46-52). So while that is less than a conjure, I can use a non-elemental sword and nothing can strip FM.

Terek Zelta · Mar 05, 2010, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by rodzilla711

The following is from the Offical Guild Wars Webs site:

"Tactics is the least exciting Warrior attribute and primarily sees use as a secondary attribute on other classes."

Personally, I think Tactics are still very weak, I don't really see anything to get warm and fuzzy about. One skill I think they surely killed is "Deflect Arrows". I used it on my healing Rit in RA to cover the spirit I used and on one of the monk builds I used in RA. It worked good for my Rit in RA. The monk use was very situational and not that great.

I'm not sure what group they are changing the skills to please but it's certainly not warriors. Personally I feel that warriors are by far the weakest class in RA, Fort Aspenwood from Luxon side and JQ on both sides. PvE maps are much easier to clear with casters. Sometimes I do PvE maps with no melee at all, most of the time it's very fast and a lot easier than working a melee type into the build, atlease it is easier for me, I've had a PvE Warrior for over 4 years and they're not the best toon to run with that is for sure. If you guys/girls come up with a good warrior build using tactics please let me know I would like to give it a whirl and compare it to the caster builds I use, as I've pretty much given up on my warrior after a little more than 4 years.

I'm obsessed with being immortalized as a GW henchman - I don't know why. So I love tactics because it makes me feel "henchmany." When I ping my builds in groups, I'm always "Terek Zelta [Tactical Henchman]" or "Terek Zelta [Soldier Henchman]" or "Terek Zelta [Brawling Henchman]" and you get the idea.

I don't play this game to powergame. I go out of my way to be weak. I like the challenge of making strong builds out of weak ones.

So anyway. Tactics axe builds should look something like this:

Dismember
Penetrating Blow
Optional
Whirlwind Attack
Fear Me!
Optional
Soldier's Stance
Optional

What I run is this, and variations of this:

12 + 1 + 2 Tactics
12 + 2 Axe Mastery

Dismember
Penetrating Blow
Penetrating Chop
Whirlwind Attack
Fear Me!
Soldier's Stance
To the Limit!
Save Yourselves!

SY doesn't synergize well with this low adrenaline bar, but it's there if we're about to get nuked.

Sometimes I switch some skills out, but I try to keep To the Limit because the +60 HP offsets the major runes I have to use.

I use this with a sundering axe. Oh yes.

The basic idea here is that Penetrating Blow/Chop don't synergize with strength, and help to make up for the lost AP. When we add sundering mods and Fear Me to the equation, these two skills rip stuff up in HM.

The damage may not be the most consistent, but it works. The new To the Limit is a godsend.

Bobby2 · Mar 05, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

The damage may not be the most consistent, but it works. The new To the Limit is a godsend.

...Yeah. You could just use FGJ! and nobody would blame you for being too OP.

Greedy Gus · Mar 06, 2010, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

So tactics will only see use in gimmicks. Good set of buffs.

Nah not really. Stuff to show up in gvg so far are fine:

fearme on axe gives you around 6-10 more average damage per hit over time from more crits (against stationary) with a more consistent spike unload, functioning somewhat like a half strength conjure without the drawbacks and some extra energy burns thrown in. The tactics spec allows you to throw thrill of victory in for your executioners while upgrading bulls to coward, and thrill makes up for adren loss on fearme & coward while somewhat powering them.
Charge boost is a nice extra, without breaking anything, making it more viable to run a team utility elite over other min/max strength bars.

laksa and curry · Mar 07, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

To answer TS buff to tactics were interesting... but not good enough for me to drop str attributes for it